Curse

studentochaos · Jul 27, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

(I recognize this thread would fit better in sardalac sanatarium section but as I would like Pvp players to actually read this and talk about this idea, I think this is the better forum.)

As many know the combat system in Guildwars is based on Magic: The Gathering, however, I think Guildwars may be able to learn a thing or two from the way Magic organizes its tournament play as well.

When Magic first came out the game wasn’t so much as “balanced” it is was Richard Garfield put a bunch of powerful cards in to make a fun game. However, to continue to make sales new expansions had to be released both for the sake of keeping the game fresh but also for keeping people paying money to support the game itself. None of this is bad, but quickly a problem appeared. To be competitive EVERYONE needed the power cards of early sets. This soon led to the development of multiple tourney formats, but most importantly, Type II. Essentially Type II play is the latest expansions and the “core” cards that are released with each new major edition of the game. The advantage of this system is the metagame could keep moving on and forgetting old power cards. This allowed the game to remain fresh and keep it accessible to new players.

As I see it, Guildwars needs to create its own Type II format by creating a separate ladder where only “core” skills and skills from the latest expansion are available to be used. While I recognize this would divide the PvP player base, it would also likely solve a large number of problems and complaints.

Complaint: Guildwars has no skill balance.

Solution: Skills are weighed in power in PURELY relative terms. People seem to miss how they apply logical reasoning to skills. Cleave is not a bad skill if it existed as the only axe elite in the game. However, because eviscerate exists we compare the two, recognize our resources (spots on bar) are limited, and we choose the skill which is better. It is impossible to achieve true skill “balance” if all skills are only as good as they are in relation to each other. If GW had a Type II ladder for factions, eviscerate would not have been an option. Think of how different the ENTIRE metagame would be. Think about the new skills that would need “balance” as they are clearly better then the other options. Would “enraged smash” have seen serious play? Would Sin damage elites have appeared in the metagame because they compared nicely to cleave? Before you start screaming about, “THEN EVERYTHING WOULD BE BROKEN ZOMG,” recognize that all skills have a broad formula of counters. Rarely would a skill be outstanding in one format and terrible in another. Also, because the interactions of skills in type II would be more limited, determining the needs for buffs/nerfs would be a simpler process overall.

Complaint: As more skills appear the game becomes harder to play a “balanced” build on. Also, as number of skills increases you can’t prepare for everything so it becomes “build over skill.”

Solution: Two different ladders = two different ways to play. You can have your Gvg team run a “type one” build with all the power skills from all the expansions. This will through time evolve to more extreme power builds (eventually extreme gimmick builds). Some people will find that to be a lot of fun. Others would prefer the play of “type II” where in theory the restriction of skill options would return the game to a format where pressure is still a powerful option and skill/ tactics can’t be overcome by pure builds in the more restricted meta-game.

Not Yet Complaint but will be lethal one day: Guildwars Pvp will inevitably alienate new players to the point that you can’t be involved without a large monetary/time investment.

Example: Hi I am Johnny 15 year old. I just bought Guildwars Chapter 5. I really love watching the games on observer mode but I can’t play gvg because I can’t afford the $200 investment of the previous 4 chapters. Had I been able to be competitive I would have played for a longer time and bought future chapters. Instead I feel alienated by the parts of the game I can’t experience so I quit and play WoW because that cartoony grindfest doesn’t alienate me.

Solution: By having a competitive mode that any new player can become involved in the player base remains healthy. I don’t expect the current high level gvg players to play forever. New players must fill their ranks or guildwars pvp will die. Anet likes making money so the best way to prevent player alienation is to keep pvp accessible to new players. While a “tournament edition” that is a “pay for UAX” would do a lot for this, it would not solve this alienation problem. Meaning: why would a new player spend $50 on a “tournament edition” of a game they already own just to unlock a feature they have never tried? The answer is they wouldn’t. To keep introducing new players to guildwars pvp it has to remain accessible.

POTENTIAL PROBLEM: The problem of introducing a “second ladder” is the theory that you would spread the ladder too thin so high level players crush weak ones for hours a day, or that you end up waiting huge amounts of time between matches.

Potential Solution: Move off ladders to a league format. Restricting times/player pools may alleviate this issue. However, as this is a potential solution to a non-existing issue, any solution or its details would have to remain pure conjecture.

Much like Magic I believe guildwars has long term potential. However, to achieve this potential the pvp community needs to continue to add new members as the old ones retire. It is easy to add new pve players to Guildwars if the RPG elements are strong, but to continue to develop as a pvp game the essential structure of tournaments needs to be addressed and I believe that this type II format would prove an adequate solution. (Also reconnects…..)

Goblinmatt · Jul 28, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Bumping this for you since it is such an amazing idea. Im not much of a fan of T2 in mtg though

They will probally do this once more expansions come out becuase it will be near impossible for newer players to pvp competitevly without buying all the other games.

Aug · Jul 28, 2006, 08:28 PM // 20:28

I'm definitely in favor of a Type II style ladder. I didn't like it much in M:tG, but that's because it was quite expensive to continue competing... to get enough copies of the cards you wanted/needed would cost you ~$300-$400. The same is true for a GW GvG match... but that cost is spread over 8 players.